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3.3 diesel (200hp/254hp) and Forscan

874 Views 42 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  Southeastern
Hi,
Are 3.3 200hp and 254hp engines somehow different? Is it possible to remove limiter by Forscan from 200hp version?
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It would be pity to lost 6 years warranty...
Well i didn't lost it for Mondeo, but you never know how it would be with Mazda. Anyhow with such change you do not modify original software, but just activate a map, which is suitable for this engine (see our VIN parts discussion)
In Audi they recognize all 'modification' (e.g. pedalbox). I think in every new cars is the same.
So the difference is something like "T3R" in turbine part number.
based on what @Hawke said
but afaik T3=3.3 diesel Australian market, T3R=3.3 diesel UK/Europe market
Part number looks the same.
based on what @Hawke said

Part number looks the same.
You are right. I missed that one 😉 So there is a hope to upgrade to 200hp-->254hp.
You are right. I missed that one 😉 So there is a hope to upgrade to 200hp-->254hp.
By mapping, of course there is. I said that earlier :)
By mapping, of course there is. I said that earlier :)
Well this is applicable for most of cars, but I want avoid situation, that self-nominated-specialist will make a map for me. I rather like to use a stock option, which possibly I'd be able to activate myself from Forscan.
I expect to see around 300-325bhp and 700nm when i remap my 254.
Mazda already stated through various interviews with engineers, that the engine is cabable of a lot more, however with significantly worse economics and also the gearbox won't be able to handle 700 NM.

Which is also where my worries are and why I won't remap mine.
Mazda already stated through various interviews with engineers, that the engine is cabable of a lot more, however with significantly worse economics and also the gearbox won't be able to handle 700 NM.

Which is also where my worries are and why I won't remap mine.
Why can't the gearbox handle a small increase?
Because 150 NM of torque is not a "small" increase. Especially for a gearbox that's based on a clutch pack. The DQ200 for example in most 1.4 TSIs can't handle much more than 50-90 NM more in torque before the hydraulics can't keep the clutch properly engaged and the clutches start to slip. The 1.4 TSI engine however is capable of quite a lot. (Which is why the Polo GTI for example had the DQ250)
Because 150 NM of torque is not a "small" increase. Especially for a gearbox that's based on a clutch pack. The DQ200 for example in most 1.4 TSIs can't handle much more than 50-90 NM more in torque before the hydraulics can't keep the clutch properly engaged and the clutches start to slip. The 1.4 TSI engine however is capable of quite a lot. (Which is why the Polo GTI for example had the DQ250)
The standard torque is 550NM, so 700NM is not a huge increase if that figure is attainable as manufacturers always build in a certain and often large amount of tolerance. We are only talking 50BHP if not a little more as well, so around what 25% increase in power at best? Automatic boxes are inherently stronger than manual ones as well. ZF boxes that other manufacturers use are capable of over 1000NM of torque, so I think saying 'clutch' based boxes are capable of huge increases is a bit of a generalisation.

These figures are all hypothetical as its not been done yet. When a good mapper is able to put it on the rollers, we can start to see how the engine and gearbox performs. the gearbox 'may' need a remap also to utilise the power delivery, but I am confident someone like Celtic Tuning would be able to produce smoother results than Mazda's map.

I'm confident in Mazdas in engineering that it will cope with the small increase in power..but as ever with new cars and new engines/boxes, the leaders will learn the lessons first so that the followers can tread more carefully :) Mazda also come from a 'tuning' history with their cars from the MPS subsection and the MX5 and RX7 and RX8, they wont just make something that can only cope with the 'issued' amount of power as they know people tune their cars, its been a big part of their history.

Does the PHEV not use the same gearbox?
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These figures are all hypothetical as its not been done yet. When a good mapper is able to put it on the rollers, we can start to see how the engine and gearbox performs. the gearbox 'may' need a remap also to utilise the power delivery, but I am confident someone like Celtic Tuning would be able to produce smoother results than Mazda's map.

I'm confident in Mazdas in engineering that it will cope with the small increase in power..but as ever with new cars and new engines/boxes, the leaders will learn the lessons first so that the followers can tread more carefully :) Mazda also come from a 'tuning' history with their cars from the MPS subsection and the MX5 and RX7 and RX8, they wont just make something that can only cope with the 'issued' amount of power as they know people tune their cars, its been a big part of their history.

Does the PHEV not use the same gearbox?
The PHEV does use the Same gearbox - why do you think the PHEV is limited to 500 NM?

The CX-60 is not made for tuning - a lot of Japanese tried stuff and the CX-60 is the first one where everything is locked down and Mazda also uses a technology where everything has to be signed by the Mazda servers or the ECU will reject it. (That has been developed by Bosch, it uses the same systems as Mercedes and BMW.)

The standard torque is 550NM, so 700NM is not a huge increase if that figure is attainable as manufacturers always build in a certain and often large amount of tolerance. We are only talking 50BHP if not a little more as well, so around what 25% increase in power at best? Automatic boxes are inherently stronger than manual ones as well. ZF boxes that other manufacturers use are capable of over 1000NM of torque, so I think saying 'clutch' based boxes are capable of huge increases is a bit of a generalisation.
550 - 700 are 28%. The increase in power is irrelevant. Things break because of torque. And ZF has their fair share of broken transmissions, not only that, they also have different transmissions. You can't put 800 NM on the "smallest" one. It's also not a generalisation, if you take simple mechanics in to account.
Hi, I've checked other forums and someone has confirmed with Mazda service, that gearbox installed on CX-60 is not a ZF. Could someone doublecheck, please?
Why would you think it is a ZF, if Mazda says it's self developed and ZF doesn't have any kind of clutch-based auto transmissions...? It is NOT a ZF!
The PHEV does use the Same gearbox - why do you think the PHEV is limited to 500 NM?

The CX-60 is not made for tuning - a lot of Japanese tried stuff and the CX-60 is the first one where everything is locked down and Mazda also uses a technology where everything has to be signed by the Mazda servers or the ECU will reject it. (That has been developed by Bosch, it uses the same systems as Mercedes and BMW.)



550 - 700 are 28%. The increase in power is irrelevant. Things break because of torque. And ZF has their fair share of broken transmissions, not only that, they also have different transmissions. You can't put 800 NM on the "smallest" one. It's also not a generalisation, if you take simple mechanics in to account.
But the diesel is 550nm...

Any car can be mapped. Nothing is 'locked down' entirely, only to the unknowledgeable tbh, handshakes are easily bypassed if it is present. The same as Merc and BMW, easily tuned by the right people. Sure there will be an ECU flash, but nothing more than that. Some people are concerned with ECU flashes voiding their warranty as it can be seen, but my car has had so many of them already being how many times its been in at the dealers, it will hard to keep up. I'm not worried about warranty tbh, I am confident in Mazdas engineering to carry the additional power.

Engines are not mapped to run as they naturally want to be. They are done to fit a certain set of parameters set by governments. Once the engine is freed from this, it will often run better with increased MPG and efficiency. The key is mapping sensibly, and doing it car by car basis not using one of those 'uploaded' maps that are built on one car and sent around to all the others - very similar to how manufacturers do it. It can take a good 8 hours on a rolling road to map a car correctly for its particular engines parametres.

I disagree entirely with your opinion on this, but only time will tell who is correct. I may even map the gearbox as well once I see how it handles the increase in power.

Have you got some links about these interviews with Mazda engineers? Id love to have a listen/read to them.
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Hi, I've checked other forums and someone has confirmed with Mazda service, that gearbox installed on CX-60 is not a ZF. Could someone doublecheck, please?
I don't believe anyone said it was a ZF transmission. Its certainly far too clunky to be a ZF box :)
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But the diesel is 550nm...

Any car can be mapped. Nothing is 'locked down' entirely, only to the unknowledgeable tbh, handshakes are easily bypassed if it is present. The same as Merc and BMW, easily tuned by the right people. Sure there will be an ECU flash, but nothing more than that. Some people are concerned with ECU flashes voiding their warranty as it can be seen, but my car has had so many of them already being how many times its been in at the dealers, it will hard to keep up. I'm not worried about warranty tbh, I am confident in Mazdas engineering to carry the additional power.

Engines are not mapped to run as they naturally want to be. They are done to fit a certain set of parameters set by governments. Once the engine is freed from this, it will often run better with increased MPG and efficiency. The key is mapping sensibly, and doing it car by car basis not using one of those 'uploaded' maps that are built on one car and sent around to all the others - very similar to how manufacturers do it. It can take a good 8 hours on a rolling road to map a car correctly for its particular engines parametres.

I disagree entirely with your opinion on this, but only time will tell who is correct. I may even map the gearbox as well once I see how it handles the increase in power.
Oh for christ sake...either my english is really that bad and i can't bring the point across, or you just don't want to understand it. It's not about the ECU, it's about the mechanical stuff! If the gearbox is designed for a certain maximum torque, then there is very little tolerance these days, because the engineers set a maximum upper limit, which the ECU forces as upper limit.
Oh for christ sake...either my english is really that bad and i can't bring the point across, or you just don't want to understand it. It's not about the ECU, it's about the mechanical stuff! If the gearbox is designed for a certain maximum torque, then there is very little tolerance these days, because the engineers set a maximum upper limit, which the ECU forces as upper limit.
No I fully understand you, not sure you understand me - so to put it more simply, I am confident that there is far more room for scope and the gearbox can handle more than it is currently given, and that's how I will proceed.

The ECU does not 'force' an upper limit. The ECU is mapped in conjunction with the parameters set.

I can't wait to get it mapped, but I have to wait around 10 months, and then I can have a warranty installed on the car to overide Mazdas one should anything detrimental happen from the map. Also allows the engine to be ran in fairly well as it takes a good 20k for a diesel engine to break in.

As I said before, time will tell who is right ( I also notice you did provide the requested links you quoted)
Doesn't change the fact, that there have ben loads of broken ZF 8HP45's because someone thought it's a good idea to disregard the Limit of 450 NM and put 550 NM through (Or DQ200's/DQ400s...and so on). But if you are willing to get a new Gearbox (i somehow doubt, the warranty will cover that - if it does, i'm actually a bit jealous, because here in Germany there's no one going to cover that. Most "tuner" warranties only cover the engine and the Turbo, and even then the deterrent fee is horrendous...), i actually am interested what the Engine can do ;-)

Also - the Clutch in this kind of Automatic Gearbox the CX-60 has, might be even on it's limit with the stock power - i've read reports of slipping clutches on the PHEV when towing. And a lot of DQ200s (VW DSG) need new clutch packs after 90k km.
And i'll be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if that's the case with the CX-60, Mazda has stated (to my dealer and in various info materials for said dealer) that the CX-60 is "built" to last 12 Years or 150k km. (12.5k km per year is pretty average in most countries)
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